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1776 and War
McLintock — Sun, 2010-01-17 18:51
I was talking to a friend at work about the issue of war and is war ever just. This guy is a JW (jehovah's witnesses) and he said the only just war was the one in Joshua. So I asked him if the Revolutionary War just, the Civil War, Would War 1&2, and so forth. I asked him if we have a right to protected ourselves or not, he said we do, but you can't justify war. So I asked him if what our Founding Fathers did in 1776 right or wrong. Guess what he was "dumb founded", because he saw the flaw in his thinking.
We need to think ALL the way though what we believe, because if we do not we will be "on the fence" on every issue. One issue people do not think though is the so called "gun control", these people want to take our right away, their reason is to stop crime. But these criminals do not buy guns legally, but on the "black market" and they know they can not stop that. So if they pass this "gun control" the only ones with guns will be the criminals. and not the responsible citizens of the United States of America.
Back to the just war issue I think you must look at the reasons for the war it self. And as i see it MOST wars are just, Because these men were/are the most evil people who suppress the people and kill them. This guy could see how that could be just. But the Civil War was not just at all, he said. So I asked him what was the Civil War over, he said slavery, I said it was not over slavery (the same thing I said a couple of post ago) it was over the U.S. Constitution and the rights it gives the states.
So what I'am trying to say is think things though and know your history.
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Ignorant Jehovah's Witnesses
JJones2014 — Wed, 2010-01-20 13:12JWs know less about JWs than anyone on the planet. As for how JWs behave during wartime, print out some of this stuff for your JW co-worker:
http://jwemployees.bravehost.com/NewsReports/2031.html
Check out all 4 pages in this subsection before checking out this website's Main Page, which contains more real-world info than you could have ever hoped for:
http://jwemployees.bravehost.com
I see one man here that
nighthawksh — Tue, 2010-01-19 15:20I see one man here that served in Vietnam. First, I must say "Welcome home, brother." I also spent my time in that hell hole.
Now, I must first ask how many here have actually seen war? Not on TV or in a book or in a video game. I mean to actually be there, watch your comrades in arms being blown apart, hold a friend close as he bleeds to death.
I have never, ever, met a person that saw war and thought it something good. Most don't even believe it was necessary, at least the last few we have been in. I know Vietnam was not.
So, yes, I strongly adhere to the notion of "thinking" before we allow some politician (of either party) lead us into the shedding of blood and the tragic loss of the lives of our young men and women.
Thanks and welcome home...
Concretecowboy — Wed, 2010-01-20 17:56Nighthawksh - We have drank from the same well and know the same thoughts. I will stand behind this nation as my father and his father have done but I will not send my grandson off for another man's war. If Al Queda shows his head anywhere in this land or if we have a direct contact with an enemy threatening other Americans overseas, I will be first in line to defeat them. But I can not condone, nation building, or spreading our beliefs over other people who need to take care of their own lives.
When 9-11 happened, my thought was to nuke them all (Al Queda and Taliban) and let God sort them out. I know that sounds drastic but we do have the ability (small tactical nukes) to limit the destruction and simply put the world on notice that we would not suffer another 9-11. I can imagine that the entire world would have stepped back and taken care of their own bad boys. 18 of the hijackers and Osama are from Saudia Arabia but do you hear anything of them destroying the Taliban?
War is not the answer as we use it today. As Teddy Roosevelt said, "Speak softly and carry a big stick." That big stick needs to be put into the light for the entire world (not just American boys dying) to end the bad men who need to hang.
Just Wars then and now.
Dutch McGuinnes — Tue, 2010-01-19 12:42I too am a JW and want to briefly outline some truths about this very big subject. It is true that God and his people from Abraham to the nation of Isreal fought sanguinary or human wars. Being a physical people who recieved the promise of the specal human "seed" as mentioned in Gen 3"15, the physical protection of those lines of descent through warfare usually with divine help was necessary. God's approval and help verified the necessity of these conflicts to preserve this geneology. When that human seed (Jesus Christ) that was to provide the ransom appeared and died faithfully, and after estabilishing a new congregation of people with a new covenant, which superceding the Hebrew Law Covenant, these wars were no longer necessary to physically protect a physical nation and seed.
The book of Daniel and other prophets describe the conflicts and succession of world powers down to the last days. These were not approved by the creator who retains His universal soviergnty but showed his control over all things human down through the ages. Sometimes he prophecied and fullfilled the actions of worldly nations like Babylon when he called for the destruction of unfaithfull Isreal in the seventh centrury BCE.
In the first century and now, Jesus taught Christians to be no part of the world and to "put down the sward," What the nations and other factions do today in conducting and promoting conflicts and wars only provides more evidence that Jehovah's universal soveirgnty as expressed through his Messianic Kingdom is close to taking action for the ending of man's dominance and self government and the saving of peace loving people everywhere on earth. That he will do soon with a war to end all wars at Harmagedon using his angelic forces to take back that complete soviergnty once and for all.
That's a war we can appreciate which will bring lasting peace forever. See the book "What Does The Bible Really Teaches" by Jehovah's Witnesses for answers and scriptures to these and other questions. I hope this helps and promote further investigation by interested people who want to know God's thinking on these dificult subjects. DM
JW say Jesus second coming in year 1914
DannyHaszard — Wed, 2010-01-20 00:25Jehovah's Witnesses defenders will highlight that they,"don't kill in war" none the less this is deceiving as they have just as much criminal activity as any other group maybe more because they cover it up.
Thousands maybe tens of thousands of been 'martyred' for refusing whole blood transfusions all over a man made rule that is unfairly applied.
They have virtually no public charities like food pantries,soup kitchens,hospitals or schools but billions dollars in worldwide real estate that is tax free.
Other religions are also conscious objectors not just Jehovah's Witnesses they are not unique.
-
Danny Haszard www.dannyhaszard.com
The core doctrine of the Watchtower Jehovah Witness is Jesus second coming in year 1914 this is bogus
Tell the truth don't be afraid
Just Now and Then
McLintock — Tue, 2010-01-19 16:42Dutch, thanks for the thought provoking reply. But I am recalling Romans 13:4 talking about the governing authorities says "he does not bear the sword in vain" and "he is God's minister to you for good". If I am understanding you we are not to protect ourselves and the country we live in. I also believe in God's Sovereignty, but He uses means to get His will done. So you may ask "how do we know if something (like war) is in God Sovereign Will?" All though God does not speak to us audibly, we do have His precepts and principles in His Word (both Old and New Testaments), and we must discern the truths in His Word and apply it to the situation.
The case of the Revolutionary War and the Civil War, we must look at the documents that establish the governments, and if they stepped out side of the duties they are to fulfill that are written in that document.
For us in America our government is not the people in washington, but the U.S. Constitution. We can not just "blindly" follow the people in washington, if we do we will turn in to a third world country. Our Founding Father knew that and so give us a Constitution. And we as Americans need to know our Constitution, because that is our government.
This is not a "black and white" issue, but I brought it up to make people think about the issue, because it needs talked about.
Romans 8:28
Just War
milkmandog — Mon, 2010-01-18 10:39According Augustine there are 4 criterion that make a war just.
1: the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
2: all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
3: there must be serious prospects of success;
4: the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition
Applying these criteria to all wars, show that while many wars started on just grounds, most wars left those just war conditions at some point. So technically all wars fought have ended up in an unjust condition. Usually it is in the fourth condition that wars cease to be fought under Just War conditions. --- Just look at Andersonville in the Civil War or the use of Nuclear wepons in WW2 or the fire bombing of Dresden. There were atrocities committed by all sides in every war fought. It is because of this that no war can have been declare Just. Humans just can't seem to stop at justice and almost always look to inflict vengeance and cruelty.
War, what is it good for - ______
Concretecowboy — Mon, 2010-01-18 10:36"When people speak to you about a preventive war, you tell them to go and fight it. After my experience, I have come to hate war. War Settles nothing."-DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER...
I fought in just a war as IKE speaks about, VIETNAM. I was not drafted but served 4 years and received a Bronze Star. Anyone who has not seen and been a part of a fire fight or other battle, please (as McLintock says) 'think things trough and know your history". The domino theory, the Gulf of Tonkin (lie), and other history truths will show that 'preventive' wars should be fought by those that want them. Give them swords to walk into battle and cut each other to pieces.
"Older men declare war. But it is the youth that must fight and die."-HERBERT HOOVER...
AGAIN, AS MCLINTOCK SAYS, THINK -- And with the words of a man who fought in WWII and gave his all for his country - read this and think!!! """People who have not been horrified by war to a sufficient extent . . . War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige as the warrior does today.""" -JOHN FITZGERALD KENNEDY
Great post McLintock. There
La_cowgirl21 — Mon, 2010-01-18 02:29Great post McLintock. There are so many battles in the Bible that are mentioned. The Battle of Jericho was only one of them (I'm assuming that's the one he was talking about). What about David and Goliath? I mean yes it was a single fight but they were at war. How is that not just? Now when it comes to war, I fully agree that it is our right to be able to protect ourselves. Something I feel very strongly about is that even if you do not agree with us going to war, that doesn't mean you shouldn't still support the men and women who are fighting so that we can remain free here in the United States and be able to voice our opinions on what we think about war (no matter if we are wrong or right). I am very proud of the fact that many of my family (Grandfather, Dad, Uncles, cousins, etc) have served our country (past and present). Also, those who are pushing for gun control do not realize that guns don't kill people, people do that. Even if you take away guns, there will still be crime.
Philippians 4: 13
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